Sci-Fi Hi-Fi Blog - Latest Comments in What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

NICCAI — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:30:44 -0000

Finally, someone that gets it. I bought the bundle for the first time this time around, because there were a couple of apps I was looking at. Would I have bought them otherwise? Maybe. Hard to know. But for the others, they have my interest and they now are installed on my machine. These "other apps" and even some of the bigger ones have an incredible inroads to gaining word of mouth reconginition. At the very least, they gain familiarity for a time when a problem arises and a solution is needed. MacHeist may devalue the true value of an app, but they provide an incredible service - marketing done at its best. It's not often you get the chance at a guaranteed return on investment - in this case, on your advertising dollar.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Marty — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:07:34 -0000

True. But that's not what this is. I fell in love with Little Snapper a couple of weeks ago. It solves a huge problem for me, and does it in a seamless, elegant fashion. I use it every day. And Wiretap Studio Pro is just genius. If I didn't already own them both, I'd buy this bundle just to get my hands on those two apps.

(But what about the rest of these products? Hmm. Not a one appeals to me.)

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Ken — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:44:09 -0000

Here's my take on the MacHeist.

As a new user to the Mac in April 2004. I was happy with my Mac with iLife and iWork. Aperture, Final Cut Express and Logic Express came later. I bought into the whole Apple regime. I was happy and content with that.

Then I started hearing about MacHeist (and MacUpdate) bundles. The whole heist thing didn't make any sense at first.

I've seen some of these programs before, but they didn't have the Apple stamp on them. They weren't "blessed" so I didn't buy them. A few I downloaded and tried, but not really got into them. Why? I didn't want to like the program. I didn't want to feel like I *had* to own it. "If I like this program and it works then I need to fork out $$$". I didn't want to do that.

So I bought the first MacHeist bundle. I don't even recall what programs came with that. I don't even know if I've used any of them.

It did however, make me think that the "indie" software was OK. As a developer indie is a cool word, something to strive for. As a user indie means not a "real" company and something that can disappear, etc.. Who wants to buy into that besides other indies?

The bundles made me think. Program A and B both look nice and they are both worth or valued at about the same price as the bundle. So, if I get the bundle and I'm not happy with A or B at least I have something else. I won't have to deal with a return, trying to get my money back or the dreaded buyer's remorse. I also won't care, because I felt like I got a good deal even if I don't use ANY of the programs in the bundle.

I ended up liking C more anyway. I wouldn't have even tried it if it wasn't in the bundle.

I just got the MacHeist 3 bundle. I don't have ANY direct use for ANY of the programs (so there's money to developers they would have never received). But now I can try them on MY own time and not be limited to a 15-30 day trial. The best part is - if I like it I already own it which removes my original fear.

Oh, I've already downloaded Voodoo Pad, just because I thought Acorn was cool.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Thom — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:27:54 -0000

Calling people who buy MacHeist "cheap bastards" (hello Simone) is not only missing the points you make here, but the ultimate point - that these developers are adults who chose to make their software available this way. Where's the controversy in that?

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Travis Butler — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:01:11 -0000

Yeah, I think the exposure is the point. People who buy it for WireTap and World of Goo get Acorn in the deal, take a look at it just because they got it, and say 'Hm, I like this,' when they never would have looked at it otherwise.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Derek K. Miller — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:53:09 -0000

The question for developers about MacHeist is, ultimately, is the money invested (not "lost") in reduced revenue from MacHeist sales just as or more effective than the same amount of money spent on other forms of advertising and marketing? Some people complain that customers buying the MacHeist bundle are simply cheap, but are we similarly cheap if we watch a "free" TV program subsidized, in part, by software advertising, or read a website paid for, in part, by one of the same companies?

It's not unreasonable to argue than in both cases, companies are increasing their expenses by letting us get something for less than it's worth. In MacHeist, the developers' spending is just more obvious and direct, because it's their own product they're subsidizing, not an entertainment program or a website.

By the way, I've never bought a MacHeist bundle or otherwise participated in any way, but I have purchased some of the included products on their own, at regular prices. But I don't think MacHeist is a bad thing.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Brian Arnold — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:53:08 -0000

The argument against piracy being a big deal usually reads something like "The pirates aren't people who'd buy the music/software anyways, so it's not a lost sale."

In a sense, it's much the same way here. I already own one or two of the applications, and so now I have dual licenses (as I don't really know anyone else I'd have gifted the licenses to). I've bought into every MacHeist so far, and out of all of that, I maybe actually *still* use one or two of the apps. The rest linger, gathering digital dust and cobwebs, eventually to be AppZapped into oblivion (the irony being that I got AppZapper in MH2).

Delicious Library would be an exception. I still use it on occasion and enjoy it, and I've paid for the upgrade to DL2. I wouldn't have used it, were it not for MacHeist, and now he's gotten more of my cash because I'm willing to pay for a product I enjoy.

I happily bought into MH3. It's an amazing deal. I don't see myself using 90% of it more than for a few days as an amusing cheaply-paid trial. If I wind up sticking with some of them, I'll become a paying customer for further upgrades, as well as a word-of-mouth promoter, because I like to make noise about great software.

(I may have to co-opt this comment for a post on my blog, hehe)

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Xavier Muñiz — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:44:41 -0000

Agree with schwa.

You say about the T-shirts: " they’re a far cry from the quality of a real screenprinted shirt", and that's not the case of the indie software in the MH bundle. I think most of the software on the MH bundle (I don't know well all the products) are great high-quality pieces.

So it's not a thing of buying software because it's fun, but because the price is really low.

An example:

Espresso 1.0 was released on this week, and I think there's a lot of people who wants to have it, but most of that people also knows about the MH bundle, and they are using the trial for a while and waiting for MH to "unlock" Espresso to save some money.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Art — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:36:42 -0000

MacHeist offers marketing. It's that simple.

Developers gets exposure and pay via large discounts.

Revenue opportunities exist via future updates once they have us hooked.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

schwa — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:32:54 -0000

Yup. They certainly get what it takes to market the bundle.

Personally, I really don't have any trouble with the concept itself. Developers are making money (otherwise they wouldn't do it), charities make some money, consumers win more than anyone else. I don't think it is necessarily driving down the value of Mac apps (if it was run monthly then sure - that would be a more valid argument) . I just have problems with the guys running it. I don't shop at Walmart because I don't like their business practices, I moved my domains off of godaddy.com once I knew the owner was using godaddy as a forum for his xenophobia, etc, etc. I don't like funding douchebags.

However that's a personal thing and I have to say, The Hit List and Expresso for $40 is VERY compelling.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

chris — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:30:00 -0000

A bunch of crap products for $39 is still a bunch of crap products for $39.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

dda — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:17:04 -0000

25% of each bundle price goes to one of 10 charities (or evenly split if you don't want to choose); the requirement to unlock WireTap Studio was $100k to charity and the requirement to unlock BoinxTV is $400k. I don't know the requirements for The Hit List and Espresso but I am assuming it will be a charity target of some kind.

I got a lot more in my loot bag than rocks; I got things I use to this day.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

dda — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:11:18 -0000

Did you even *try* MacHeist? I did all the heists and yes, they were puzzles (and some were quite hard), not games, really. But they were fun and they took a non-trivial amount of work to set up, including doing video now.

Yes, you can stop in, buy the bundle and leave. But you can also join, do the heists and get the rewards (or not, as you choose) which, to me anyway, makes it a lot more fun.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Bart — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:00:59 -0000

I wonder how everyone would feel if instead of being $39, these programs would be FREE. Free for X amount of days, free until we get X amount of downloads. Get more people to download, we'll unlock the next program and make it free too. Would the bloggers against MacHeist be talking about it being demeaning anymore? Or just a temporary offer to get more customers?

This is just giving away the razor (by charging a low price) to sell the blades (future upgrades). Like many people, I haven't heard of most of these programs before. Now some of them will get money from me in the future.

Also, to the people complaining about the t-shirt store analogy. That store charges more for the shirts because they *have* to. It's more expensive to run a store like that, to pay someone to spend more time wrapping the shirts like that and putting the stickers on it, to put the bag of chips in, to do the custom iron-on, and keeping the store organized the way it is. MacHeist doesn't need to add a premium to distributing software online, but like the t-shirt deli they distribute it in a more exciting way.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

buzzandersen — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:59:20 -0000

Ah, yes, you know I debated that very distinction when posting, but Yelp had it listed as Wicker Park so I went with that :-). Changed in the post.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Brian Pan — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:57:03 -0000

I'm a Mac user/lover but I gotta slap my head at all of this- only in the Apple world do we have discussions about whether it's a good idea to buy things at a discount.

Pricing is marketing. Coupons and discounts are offered in every market there is. To not take advantage of using one is ridiculous. To refuse to offer a discount for your product is your choice. It may be a valid one, but don't complain when the other person or company's creatively-priced widgets are flying off the shelf.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Bill Bessette — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:55:59 -0000

Are the applications devalued if the public would not have purchased them otherwise?

Are dedicated users less valuable to the developer when it comes time to ante up for the upgrade 2 years down the road, simply because they joined on a discount rate?

I think not. By and large the target market for your product will find and buy your product. It's getting your software in front of people who didn't know they needed you that is the key to growing your user base.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Victor — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:53:34 -0000

As someone who participated wholly in all the experience leading up to the bundle, I can say that a happy consumer. Don't get me wrong about my concern for the developers. I too hope that they're getting a fair cut. As many have spoken before me, it's almost expected that developers are going into this with their eyes open and the terms of compensation are a lot more fair. It is in its third incarnation after all... you know the adage about shame on you, shame on me. Because it's a bundle, I'm assuming some developers are likely getting some money from people that wouldn't even have bothered buying from them. I think part of the perceived value for developers may be from people who wouldn't have bought otherwise, and, admittedly without any stats, I can only hope that the power of numbers will leave all of the contributors to MacHeist happy.

Aside from the price-value analogy which seems kind of opposite of MacHeist, I agree with the perception of the experience. For those who visited the site only a couple of days ago just to check out the bundle (unfortunately, it seems like some of the commenters may be such), there was a whole lot to the user experience that would have been missed. MacHeist is basically a sophisticated treasure hunt based on a bunch of pretty complicated puzzles under the guise that you're an agent trying to accomplish a mission to help Apple. There are plenty of users that relish simply the quest portion of the MacHeist experience. I think for some, the bundle is really just the icing on top of a fun time that the MacHeist crew put together. Certainly for people who don't care for such pursuits nor for the community aspects of this social game, I presume that value is lost.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Raj — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:40:07 -0000

Sooner or later, people will stop focusing on the "sizzle vs. steak" argument, which is very subjective, and focus on the objective problems, not with supporting the software developers, but supporting the MacHesit crew themselves. The fact, for instance, that they have sold enough vaporware of their own creation to choke a horse, assembled the biggest scam in recent memory by way of MyDreamApp.com (hey, I bet those winners are really glad they'll get 10% of the sales of their apps as part of their prize. Oh wait, you mean they never actually have shipped a single app? How convenient..." -- in the meantime, they received how many tousands of ideas, which the submission agreement says is theirs to keep forever? Was I the only one to read that fine print?), and they have the developer attention span of a gnat, where anything that's new and shiny and they can make several throusand dollars off of just to a high-gloss shine gets their attention over supporting stuff they've already sold ("Well, I could maybe update Disco or AppZapper, but hey, maybe this tip calculator would make me a bunch of money with almost no effort. Yes!"). Remember that a few of the original MacHeist apps were THEIR OWN APPS. And any time they're strapped for devlopers to join in, they throw in yet another copy of AppZapper and it's laughable "lifetime free upgrades" promise. Easy to uphold if you NEVER EVER SHIP AN UPDATE EVER AGAIN. But what do I know? I'm just a guy bitter that he defended their initial offering tooth and nail, back when part of it went to charity (does part of the proceeds go to charity anymore?), and then turns out all I got in my MacHesit loot bag was Delicious Library, an aging TextMate and a bunch of rocks.

If I'm wrong, then please someone clarify, but to my mind, these guys are snake-oil salesmen that taint anyone and anything they come in contact with. They've definitely assembled some realy trustworthy and good developers for this latest go-round, but ethically, I can't put money in MacHesit's pockets until they prove me wrong.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Bob Bucktown — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:38:09 -0000

Not to be too picky, but The T-Shirt Deli is located in the Bucktown neighborhood of Chicago, not the Wicker Park neighborhood. Since many outsiders don't know the boundaries, it's more common to refer the area as "Wicker Park/Bucktown" just to avoid nit-picking corrections like this one. :)

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

buzzandersen — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:00:32 -0000

Fair enough, maybe I don't actually know enough about how it actually works. I've never given it more than a look, really, but I think their presentation is great, and whether or not it's a real game, I still think they've dressed the whole thing up in a pretty nice experience that has a lot more pizazz than the usual software buying routine.

As for the metaphor with the shirts, frankly, I think people are trying to take it a bit too literally. I wasn't trying to argue that the economics of the T-Shirt Deli are exactly like MacHeist. I was trying to argue that we can all learn something from the way both MacHeist and the T-Shirt deli take a mundane, fairly commoditized experience and make it exciting.

I recognize that the devaluation of software is a bad thing, and I'm no happier about it than you, but I also get pretty annoyed at how sanctimonious people get about that subject. I guess I just look at us as all being in a market we have to adapt to, and it's a little silly to expect everyone to say "OK, if we all toe the line we can keep our prices up." Software is increasingly commoditized, and I think the people who provide exceptional marketing/buying experience are the ones who will be able to succeed long term. This, BTW, is the exact same opinion I have about the App Store.

Perhaps Panic is a better example of what I'm talking about--they actually manage to provide a T-Shirt Deli-like experience without sacrificing prices. Frankly, sometimes I guess I just like to play devil's advocate when there's a blogosphere pile-on like the one on MacHeist, and, while I've acknowledged over and over that they may not be an ideal model, I still think it's worth trying to see if there's anything we can learn from their success.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

Dreamer — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:33:27 -0000

Ok to ad balance to this arguement, read from a developer:-
http://www.seoxys.com/the-m...

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

dance — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:31:00 -0000

Don't forget that the unlocking mechanism, and the referral links, also transforms every purchaser into an additional marketer.

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

schwa — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:21:35 -0000

Not sure I necessarily agree with you there (although the t-shirt deli does looks fun). The t-shirt deli metaphor really doesn't work too well I think - they're actually custom making you a new t-shirt, they're not taking cool shirts from bustedtees or somewhere and selling them for pennies.

I would have to say the game part of Macheist has basically dwindled to not relevant. Macheist is now really just a package of N apps for $X. You go to the site, you buy the package, you get the apps, a few days later you'll get the other two apps unlocked (which is pretty much a certainty). Where's the game?

Re: What We Can Learn From MacHeist

McDev — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:09:43 -0000

That's a great analogy. I understand that some MH developers don't make much money from the sales, but that's really not the point - the goal is to get eyeballs on those products, which leads to eyeballs on the devs sites, which leads to sales of other products down the road. Not to mention upgrades...

I like to think of it as an online tradeshow/expo - you walk in the door and are given freebie after freebie all in the hopes of future sales.

PS: Yeah, what does the shirt say?
:)